Course talk:ARST573/Archives – History (Ancient)

Hi Sarah,

I'm going around to our pod members to check in and see if I can offer some last minute feedback. Your page looks really good! I've read through your feedback and like the changes you've made to it.

One thing though: I noticed in a few places that you've included quotation marks around an entire sentence that is otherwise integrated into a paragraph. From context, they seem like you wrote them so I'm not sure if they are a little mistake or if you are just being thorough. I'll list them by citation number in case you want to check them out: 12, 26, 49, 52 (missing a beginning quotation mark), and 70.

Otherwise, it looks great!

Hi Marisa,

Thanks so much for double checking. They are all quotes, 52 is a few sentences. Often I find it difficult to paraphrase certain sentences especially when the author phrases them the same way I would. But thank you so much for making me check them. It never hurts to be thorough.

Sarah

Makes sense, I have the same issue :)

Hi Sarah,

Overall I think your page is really well done. I am slightly confused, however, with your introductory sentence as to what you are trying to get across.

Hey, Sarah!

I really like what you have! I learned a lot by reading this section!

The one thing that stuck out to me was the cuneiform section. It's an interesting section, but I'm wondering if you need it? If you gave a little section on all the systems of writing in the other ancient empires, I would say leave it. But as it is, it sticks out.

Good luck!

Hi Rosie,

I see that it is a bit out of place given the layout of the rest of the page. I still want to keep it though. I have made the heading smaller so it calls less attention to itself but I do talk a bit about record formats in other regions but since few, if any survive, there is not much to say about them. Cuneiform tablets, on the other hand, survive in their thousands and so much has been written about them and we can tell so much about the archival practices simply because they survive, I feel I have to talk about them. Although, I recognize that I am quite biased, as the ancient Near East is the most fascinating area of ancient history for me, and why I chose this topic.

Thanks.

Sarah, I’m so sorry—I thought I left a comment on your page early. As went back to leave my second round I found what I’d written out sitting under the header of the discussion. Not in a thread, not where it belonged at all. I don’t know what went wrong. I have had a few headaches with the Wiki glitching out on me, logging me out while writing comments, and loosing comments (+technical learning curve). I didn’t mean to be neglecting your page like this!

This comment is therefore going to be a bit of a long two-in-one with my ‘second round’ of feedback plus some comments from my ‘first round’.

• In my first round, I was going to suggest making the focus of your Wiki clear and explicit in the introduction by stating that you were covering the history of modern Western archives, your time period, and your region. The introduction you have posted now (1) accomplishes that and (2) introduces your subject. I really like how you’ve stated from the beginning that ancient archives—though they can be absolutely understood according to our conception today—look very different.
• Your revised introduction also solved another point I had which was: I found the way you lead your section on Ancient Origins with the argument that archives and writing production have developed hand-in-hand, but then followed up by giving dates of when writing systems were invented by the Maya and in China a bit of a teaser. With a more streamlined and direct focus of your statement in your introduction and throughout your page, the inclusion of the Mayan and Chinese dates now read as informative tidbits that I think you intended them to be. Generally I think you’ve accomplished greater clarity in your first sections and it works well.
• I mentioned in my ‘first round’ that I hoped you were going to go into more detail about record-keeping techniques and materials (I had particularly enjoyed your citation regarding the impression of pictographs onto wet clay). Which you have! With pictures! And details about storage! I think this is fascinating. Hurray.

My ‘second round’ of comments are just suggestions for edits having done a proof-read. As with all edits, entirely up to you if you choose to incorporate them.

• In the Mesopotamia section you mention “limited validity” and “unlimited validity”. I think I know what you’re getting at with these terms, but I find them a little vague. Either a quick explanation or a revision of word choice would solve that.
• In the Egypt section you write, “together to weld the layers together”. May I suggest ‘fuse’ instead of ‘weld’? While welding does mean ‘fusion of parts’ I brings metal welding to my mind first, and causes the sentence to read a bit strange.
• Glad to see you found a way to format block quotes that worked for you.

Again, so sorry, I wish those first comments had gone through so you’d had them when I had intended you to. As it stands, your Wiki has developed into an exhaustive page.

Hi Amy,

The mystery is solved!! I saw your earlier comments and took them into consideration when reworking my page. Because they weren't in a thread, I thought they were the words of the Wiki God. Actually, I thought they might have been the comments of Professor Douglas but this explains so much. I am so glad you like the changes I have made so far.

For the second round of feedback:

• I agree that “limited validity” and “unlimited validity” are odd. They are the terms used by the author I was citing but I think I might replace them with "... retention" (drawing a blank here) and "permanent retention"
• I also like your idea of using fuse instead of weld.

Thanks so much for your comments. Good luck with your assignments!

Not the Wiki Gods, just the Wiki inept. I wish I'd caught that sooner.

Thanks so much for your encouragement and last editing suggestions. Especially the rewording you suggest for introducing the Upward & McKemmish citation. I agree, that's much clearer!

Hi Sarah,

Ancient History and Archives is a huge area to tackle...as others have mentioned below. I like the areas you have decided to cover. Some Suggestions:

• Perhaps you could explain early in your introduction the Scope of your Wiki: what areas you have decided to focus on and why. Some of our peers had pointed out to me in my wiki on Archives and FOI that I needed to make my readers aware early on that my wiki would focus predominantly on the Canadian context.
• Before you dive right into your "Near East" section, consider making a "Key Developments/Issues" section, and/or a "Ancient History Records" section, and then move your list of the "early records that were created/retained" underneath. That way, your Table of Contents will also move up on the page and the introduction is kept neatly separate.
• Under "Problems and Criticism", I really like your discussion on how these ancient institutions may not be considered by some actual "archives". I thought maybe that was important enough of a point to elaborate on early on in your introduction or in a second section of your wiki, as it sets an important context for your readers.

Good luck this week!

JT

Hi Jessica,

The "Problems and Criticism" section was my favourite section to write for this wiki and I kept going back and forth over whether to draw more attention to the issues of ancient archives or to repeat certain problems where they were relevant. I will add some information on the issues in the intro though and fiddle with the formatting or add another section to make the page more visually appealing. Do you think I should move the entire "Problems and Criticism" section up so it is before the "Near East" section?

Thanks,

Sarah

Hi Sarah,
That's a tricky one...since your focus is on Ancient History and Archives, I think keep it where it is --after all your regions and their descriptions. I think readers will only be able to fully appreciate the "Problems and Criticisms" you raise after they read the main meat of your wiki. You could always add a sentence or two in "Ancient Origins" to introduce some pertinent issues that will arise, to guide the reader along. For example, what I said before about how these ancient institutions may not be considered by some actual "archives".

Your page is looking great!

JT

Hi Sarah!

This is looking really good, I am so jealous that you can use so many images because tablets from thousands of years ago are certainly "public domain" haha, has been a problem for me with late modern history. Anyway, a small suggestion is that in your first sentence "Archives, as a place where records are stored and preserved, have existed for about as long as writing has existed." I feel that the commas are not necessary. The "has existed" at the very end may also be unnecessary. These are obviously tiny things and I could be wrong, just something that stuck out. Also, my possibly more useful suggestion is to include a "See Also" sections with links to wikis such as the medieval history one or something. I find it is a nice addition and linking most of the history wikis makes sense in my opinion. You can copy my, or anyone else's, code for the section if you have any trouble. Anyway, fantastic page and look forward to seeing more!

Cheers, Eric

Hi Eric,

How about we compromise and I keep my commas but get rid of the second "existed" at the end of the sentence? I agree, it is redundant. My intention for that sentence is to define archives in a separate clause within the sentence, separating it with commas. It is just my personal style of writing.

I will definitely add a "See Also" section. I am not sure about the code but I will look it up as you suggested.

Thanks,

Sarah

Hello Sarah,

Good work so far! I think the idea of limiting your topic to the Near East, Greece, and Rome is a good one as I am finding my topic to be a little too unwieldy.

First suggestion, could you define what archives in the ancient period are in the first sentence? This is just a Wiki convention thing, but you could also bold the term "ancient archives" in that sentence.

Another formatting suggestion. When doing your long quotations, perhaps use a block quote to match Wiki convention. I think this will also highlight the points you are making between quotes. Let me know if you want help on figuring out the coding for that. It's difficult to send it through a discussion post apparently...

Also, are you planning on adding more information to the Metroön section?

As I said to you last week I'll add more about the Justinian Code and the spread of Christianity to my page.

Hi Maggie,

I sort of define archives in the first sentence but only in passing. I have been thinking about a way to define "ancient archives" since reading your suggestion but they vary so much and we know so little about many of them it is hard to give a strict definition. For instance, many "ancient archives" may simply be storage places or discarded heaps with no organization or arrangement and it is next to impossible for modern scholars and archaeologists to tell the difference. I may mention this in my first paragraph as one of the difficulties of studying ancient archives as Jessica suggested.

I originally wanted to do block quotes for the long quotations in my Greece section but did not know the code at the time. Thank you for sending it to me code via other means.

I am done with the Metroon section. Again, so little is known and scholars keep going back and forth about whether it is an archives or not that I did not want to talk about it too much. Would it be better if I simply added those few sentences to the previous section rather than giving the Metroon it's own section?

Thank you,

Sarah

Hi Sarah,

Sorry for the late message. Your page looks like a really good start! I'm looking forward to learning more under the 'Near East' section. Will you be looking at archives/records outside of Greece, Rome and the Near East? I don't know much about the rest of the world during that time period - did you find much in your research?

Hi Marisa,

I am going to stick to Near East, Greece, and Rome. I will add a sentence in the introduction specifying the scope of my wiki. Maybe next year someone could write about ancient archives in Eastern cultures and the Americas. It is just too big of a topic to cover all the ancient civilizations and these are the ones I know best.

Hi Sarah,

A scope sentence sounds like a good plan since the title is "History (Ancient)." Greece, Rome and the Near East have definitely given you enough to write about - it is a large topic!

Hi Sarah!

Great page so far - you've got great coverage of your topic! Just one spelling mistake I noticed - at the bottom of you page you wrote "know" instead of "no" in one sentence.

Thanks Christie,

I have not edited it yet for spelling but thanks for the heads up. I often spell "know" instead of "no" for know apparent reason...that was a joke.

Hi again fellow pod member,

Your page is developing really nicely!

Just some minor points and suggestions: I see that you plan on adding hyperlinks later, and that Morgan has already suggested that these should include people, places and events, but thought I would just make a couple of suggestions of some to include: pictographs, cuneiform, phonograms, clay tablets, Linear B, Delphic oracle.

I agree with Maggie that block quotes would help highlight the long quotations that you have in the "Classical Athens" section.

Finally, in the "Mesopotamia" section, the second sentence might be a little bit confusing since you used similar wording for both "backed" and "baked": "once it was backed, it was very durable once it had been baked". Perhaps you could say: "once it had been backed then baked..."?

Hi Hannah,

Thanks for catching that typo. I have not thoroughly edited my page yet and there was more than the typo wrong with that sentence. Thanks for the link suggestions and I was originally thinking of doing block quotes but was not sure how at the time. I will do some more research to figure out how to do that.

Thanks, Sarah

I am not absolutely sure how to do block quotations either but I think it can be done using colons, so for each line of your quote you would place a colon then indent as much as you want using your space bar (tab bar doesn't work).

First line of quotation

Second line of quotation

What I did:

: (insert spaces) First line

: (insert spaces) Second line

You might find an easier way of doing it!

I am not absolutely sure how to do block quotations either but I think it can be done using colons, so for each line of your quote you would place a colon then indent as much as you want using your space bar (tab bar doesn't work).

First line of quotation

Second line of quotation

What I did:

: (insert spaces) First line

: (insert spaces) Second line

You might find an easier way of doing it!

I used colons for my block quotes and found it straightforward (and aesthetically to my liking).

Another route is the one shown in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_quotation Take a look at the code if you like the idea of block quotes in boxes like this.

Or play around with suggestions here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_markup#Blockquote

Glad it worked!

(I have no idea why my above comment submitted twice).

Hi Sarah,

This is looking really great so far! I'm writing a history page as well and wanted to pass on some advice I received from a pod member. She said to include in-text links for things such as events, places, people, etc. that those who aren't history buffs may not understand entirely. You may already be planning to do this, but just wanted to tell you in case you aren't. Can't wait to see the finished page!

Thanks Morgan,

I am planning to add links as one of the last stages of my wiki but thanks for the suggestions as to what content should be linked.

Hi Sarah,

Your wiki looks great so far!

I know its early, and you have not written some of your sections yet, so you may already have these sources, but I thought I would just suggest some that I am aware of in case you haven't discovered them yet.

Larsen, M.T. “What They Wrote on Clay.” In Schonsboe and Larsen, eds. Literacy and Society. Akademisk Forlag, Copenhagen, 1989, pp121-­148.

Pedersén, Olof. Archives and Libraries in the Ancient Near East 1500-­300 B.C. Bethesda: CDL Press, 1998 (which you might have as I checked to see if it was still available at IKBL and it is on loan)

Best, Hannah

Thanks Hannah,

Pedersén's book is one of my main sources but I don't have Larsen's article yet. I will be sure to check it out.

Thanks, Sarah