Course:IGS585/OK2022WT2/Reflect15

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Reflections on the conversation with Aaron Thibeault

Ilyas Kanybek

Mr Thibeault from the city of Kelowna made one of the most representative and comprehensive presentation on the Brandt's creek and generally on the city in general. It was very interesting to learn about the plans that the city has and also Aaron talked about the decision making peculiarities. I was very positively surprised to learn that there is a sustainability strategy and some understanding of how they will be implementing it in a very hostile reality of Kelowna. I admired this realistic and bold approach that had some long-term vision on how slowly but surely the city could become at least a little greener and environment oriented. It was good to hear that they are not trying to simply copy some general concepts but contextually apply practices to specific areas of the city. I also pointed out the the team that works on urban planning was quite small, in my opinion. I think it well reflects the general level of development of the city in relation to new ways of doing. Though for some cities these changes have happened in the last century it is quite respectable that they are eventually taking place in Kelowna as well. City's understanding that concreting creeks is the worst urban solution one could come up with made me quite happy for the future of the city. I think the council should wholly support the work of Aaron Thibeault and bring likeminded people and also work on the public awareness as the citizens of the city on average might be quite behind the sustainability trends and norms that are necessary for the city.


Leandra Vanbaelinghem

It was fascinating to learn about how the development planning of a part of a city works. I was surprised to learn that Mr. Thibeault was the only person working full-time on the North End plan. Other collaborators included another manager who works on the plan about 1/3 of the time. Then pre-determined ideas about the project are sent to a broader group of around 20 people. My initial thoughts were that there would be several representatives of different disciplines, for example, a chief in sustainability. I think Kelowna's sustainability and resiliency difficulties need more resources and time dedicated to addressing them. In order to move to a more sustainable Kelowna, shouldn't sustainability leaders need to be involved in these positions? It is clear that Mr. Thibeault wants to include sustainable strategies in the North End plan, but he might not be the best equipped to do so. For example, part of the current sustainability strategy was "using concrete and pipes to manage stormwater and flood risk." This type of solution is very different from what we have been discussing in this course, where further channelling a Creek would be putting a bandage on top of another bandage. Instead, we have discussed giving back the riparian habitat to water bodies. These types of strategies are likely being considered in the North End plan because no other people are involved in this project with the expertise and time to dedicate to finding innovative and sustainable solutions. I remember a discussion during the presentation whereby funding was the limiting factor for more sustainable developments in Kelowna, and while I think this is definitely true, I am unsure if thoroughly thought-out sustainable solutions are being outlined in the first place.

Additionally, I appreciated Mr. Thibeault discussing potential reasons for channelling Brandt's Creek. I am not surprised that one of these two possibilities is waste dumping, but I was shocked to hear that some businesses' wastes in Kelowna are so intensive that complete dumping in the sewage system would be too much pressure for the system. Throughout the semester, I have wondered what incentivizes the city and businesses like Sun-Rype to dump part of businesses' wastes in Brandt's creek. Now, I think one hypothesis is that instead of upgrading the city's sewage system, which would be costly, this form of waste disposal is a less expensive approach for the city and prevents businesses from reducing production to reduce waste. Additionally, learning that the Kelowna water filtration will have to be changed in the next 20 years because of an observed increase in turbidity and a decrease in water quality was very shocking to me. This also reinforced my perspective on the importance of my group's project focus. Water quality and hydrology information would be precious to the city and the people working on this north-end plan from the utility sector.

Daisy Pullman

Aaron Thibeault is a planner for Kelowna City Council, and has been working on the North End Neighbourhood redevelopment plan for a number of years now. He presented a detailed history of the area, and outlined the trajectory of the redevelopment plan. Aaron’s use of historical aerial photos clearly illustrated the historical development of the neighbourhood and the changes made to the creek. The changes from the 1950s to the 1970s was particularly striking due to the degree of urbanisation, which must have been occurring very quickly. Aaron Thibeault supported what Ray Lewis said in his presentation a few weeks ago, which is that Brandt’s Creek has probably been used over the years for industrial waste purposes. Aaron pointed to BC Tree Fruits and the SunRype Factory as probable historical polluters, and also Kelowna Winery/Sandhills. I found the story of the creek running red west of the winery and the drunk deer very entertaining, although I wonder how true it is (as did Aaron).

The discussion of the process of the redevelopment plan was interesting, especially how long the different stages like public consultation can take. Local government clearly moves slowly, which can be a hindrance when sustainability initiatives are urgently needed. Aaron was also frank about the reality that funding has to be the biggest consideration for almost all council projects. The relationship between the private developers of the Toko Mill redevelopment and the city's plan is useful for us to consider for our project, as the Mill site redevelopment is going to significantly change the character of the neighbourhood.

Hoda Pourpirali

As an urban planner, I found Mr. Aaron Thibeault's discussion to be very exciting and informative. It was great to hear about the urban planning projects that his team is currently working on, which were similar to the projects my company is involved in. However, I was surprised to learn that the team working on such important projects is relatively small. In my opinion, urban projects of such magnitude require a larger workforce to ensure that all aspects of the project are adequately addressed.

One of the topics that intrigued me was the issue of involving indigenous people and local governments in the planning process. Mr. Thibeault's discussion shed some light on this matter, but I still have many questions on how this can be done effectively. It is essential to take into account the views of these communities in the planning process to create sustainable and inclusive cities.

Another question that came to my mind was how the different urban plans presented are related to each other. For instance, what is the connection between Dr. Lovegrove’s speech and Mr. Thibeault's discussion? Are there integrated plans among private companies, municipalities, and city councils for the development of the city and its neighborhoods? Do they follow a common theoretical literature? These are critical questions that need to be answered to ensure that the development of the city is holistic and inclusive.

During his presentation, Mr. Thibeault spoke about Brent Creek, which is primarily used for the disposal of industrial waste because it is cheaper for the city. This revelation was shocking to me, and I wonder what other environmental hazards the city is overlooking due to cost-cutting measures. It is essential to consider the long-term effects of such actions and take steps to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the residents.

I was intrigued by Mr. Thibeault's speech on Brent Creek, which involved a concrete and pipe flood control solution. While this solution seems feasible, I wonder how effective it would be in addressing the issues surrounding the creek. It is crucial to consider all available options and choose the most effective solution to address environmental concerns.

Leandra Vanbaelinghem

Hoda's research is on urban planning and has had previous planning similar work that is similar to what Mr. Thibeault presented. Hence, it was nice to hear Hoda's perspective on how few members are working on the North end plan and how shocking it was. I share this perspective too, but this initial thought came from something other than an educated opinion on this area of work and research, so hearing it from Hoda was important. Additionally, Hoda brings up a fascinating point regarding Dr. Lovegrove and Mr. Thibeault's vision of Kelowna's city planning and their correlation. This idea had not crossed my mind before, but it is very interesting and critical. To develop Kelowna sustainably, extensive communication between such key players should occur, which might already be happening. This is because uncoordinated changes may mitigate sustainable actions. I am curious to understand the extent to which such positions collaborate. Lastly, Hoda's point regarding all the environmental hazards the city is overlooking for cost purposes makes me believe that public dissemination on the subject is the right thing to do for the community and would help bring accountability and responsibility to the city.

Annie Furman

It was fascinating to see the changes Brandt’s Creek has been through (and the aspects that have stayed consistent) over the past 85 years based on the aerial photographs that Aaron Thibeault was able to uncover from the City of Kelowna archives. According to these photographs, it looks very possible that Brandt’s Creek has been channelized to some extent along its current path since before 1938, when it may have been put into a canal for irrigation to provide water to the farmland situated where the North End neighborhood currently is. It’s interesting to think that the channelization of Brandt’s Creek likely actually predates much of the concrete infrastructure that currently restricts its ability to meander. I was also very surprised to learn that the baseball diamonds located along Recreation Ave (which I’d known dated back to at least the 1960s thanks to aerial photography that Madi has discovered in the Kelowna Heritage Museum archive) was originally a horse racing track. The Kelowna Riding Club and most horseback riding activity in Kelowna is currently centered further south, around Mission Creek, but it makes sense that pastures would consistently be located near readily available water sources.

I’ve also been thinking about how Mr. Thibeault mentioned that it wasn’t until 1976 that the waste treatment plant first appeared near Brandt’s Creek, coinciding with large algal blooms in Okanagan Lake and increased tourism in the Okanagan Valley. It seems very probable that the waste treatment plant was built as a result of these things, but it seems very odd to me that there are so few written city records citing Brandt’s Creek in prior planning endeavors. In all of the urban development that has happened in the North End since 1938, it seems as though we only have the one document that Madi shared with us earlier in the term. Is the North End Neighborhood Plan the first time in almost a century that Brandt’s Creek has been considered in urban planning?

Gabrielle Heschuk

Annie, thank you for your response I can appreciate your fascination with how the creek has developed and changed throughout the years as I had a similar shocked reaction. It is interesting to think about how this creek had been so heavily modified by humans and now 50 or so years later we are discussing how to de-modify and retrofit this creek to try and bring it back to its natural state. I think that this idea of retrofitting is going to be extremely common within the next few years in terms of attempting to reverse some of the detrimental development that previous developers have done. This becomes concerning when city planners let us know that although they are aware of climate change and sustainability issues, the budget does not allow for green infrastructure. Will we just have to go back and retrofit these areas in the future as well?

Ilyas Kanybek

I do not know what was the confusion or perhaps I misunderstood but on reflection 12 I should reflect on Annie. Anyways, here we are.

I agree with Annie that the aerial photographs of Brandt's Creek provide a very interesting glimpse into the area's past and how it has changed over time. The channelization of the creek predates much of the current infrastructure, and it's interesting to learn about the horse racing track that used to be where the baseball diamonds are now. The construction of the waste treatment plant in 1976 was likely in response to algal blooms in Okanagan Lake and increased tourism, but it's surprising that there are so few records of Brandt's Creek in prior planning endeavors. Annie have correctly pointed out that these insights into the area's history and development serve as a reminder of the importance of balancing development with preservation of natural resources.

Gabrielle Heschuk

Aaron Thibeault is a city planner in Kelowna and its working on the North End neighbourhood redevelopment plan. Aaron Thibeault's presentation was extremely valuable and useful as Brandt's creek was discussed multiple times during his presentation. We were able to see what the area looked like in the past and what plans the city has in terms of its development. Brandt's creek was something that has been heavily modified throughout the years.

One thing that I asked to Aaron Thibeault was regarding the Toko Mill site and if they had an flood mitigation plans and then proceeded to ask about more about if the city plans on using sustainable materials and buildings tools for the development of the area. Aaron Thibeault responded with a very long answer instead of a short "yes" that everyone was hoping he would. He exaplined that there are a lot of things to consider when attempting and trying to build and develop sustainably. While of course the planners and especially Aaron Thibeault were on board with wanting to build sustainably there were road blocks that he discussed. The included things like budgets from the city, and overall affordability in the end. While I can appreciate these road blocks it is concerning to hear that although cities and developers are aware, they are not yet as motivated as I would have hoped to build and develop using sustainable materials and tools. There is a lot of research and evidence to suggest that building sustainably in regards to protecting for natural disaster and a changing climate will be more cost effective in the long run. This was slightly disheartening as well as it is evident that even though many planners and developers are aware of sustainability and climate change issues, due to budget they have to continue with building and developing areas unsustainably.

For our project in Brant's creek it is very enticing and motivating to research a little bit more on building materials on flood mitigation and how we can tie in sustainable architecture in order to attempt to preserve and bring back the natural flow of the stream and some of the native species while also ensuring we think about natural disaster and modification. Leandra brought up a building technique during the presentation to Aaron Thibeault about flood mitigation on either side of the creek using natural resources and Aaron Thibeault seemed to be knowledgable about this but also mentioned that they would not be implementing things like this in the development project. For our project it seems useful to make a compelling argument as to why doing something like this would be best in the long run for the development of the North end neighbourhood.

Thomas Letcher-Nicholls

Thanks so much for this Gabby, and for the questions you asked Aaron in class! I totally share your disappointment in the way that roadblocks like budgets mean that sustainable interventions and developments are stopped; I also remember in class how you said you had to reflect sometimes on how, as students in Sustainability, that is clearly our priority – but it is obviously not everyone’s, and that is really hard to get our heads around. I also found Aaron's presentation really great but disheartening in some ways, and your reflection describes that feeling so well.

Shaiyan Siddique

Mr. Aaron Thibeault is a planner for the City of Kelowna and is the project manager for the North End plan, which includes the area of Brandt’s creek. Like Leandra, I was quite surprised when I heard that Mr. Thibeault is one of the handful of people working on such an important project and that it is understaffed. However, I was surprised for a different reason.

In my home country of Bangladesh, which is a poor and developing country, the field of urban planning is not very respected. There used to be a common saying in the Bangladeshi society that the students who study urban planning at universities only do so because they could not get into any other subjects. The field used to be near the bottom of the preference list for most prospective students. Luckily, this has changed quite a bit over the last few years, and for good reasons. One of my favourite professors during my undergrad, an urban planner from the University of Hawaii at Manoa, described it nicely “is it surprising to know that the worst city to live in the world is located in a country where urban planning is the least respected subject?” Therefore, I was not surprised to know that the urban planning department is neglected and understaffed, but what surprised me was that it was happening in a country like Canada.

Mr. Thibeault presented aerial images of Brandt’s creek spanning over the course of around 7 decades, and informed us that the creek may have already started being used as an industrial sewer in the earliest available image from 1938. According to Mr. Thibeault, the main reason for this could have been the fact that since Brandt’s creek could not be used as a source of water in the same capacity as Mill creek or Mission creek, it was viewed mostly as a nuisance and was used for whatever purpose it could possibly serve. Mr. Thibeault informed us that the Okanagan basin study of 1972 raised awareness regarding the issue of water pollution, and the presence of what appears in the aerial images to be settling ponds where Brandt’s creek meets lake Okanagan by 1985 gives traction to the story that Brandt’s creek was being used for waste disposal. In this regard, Mr. Thibeault also mentioned the urban legend of deer getting drunk on fermented grape waste flowing through Brandt’s creek.

While money is a major constraint, I was happy to hear from Mr. Thibeault that there are people in the city council who are genuinely interested in improving this the state of this creek. Despite the challenges, it is high time to show this long neglected creek the care that it deserves.    

Sofia Bahmutsky

Thank you for your insightful reflection Shaiyan. I think that is very interesting you mention about the poor perception that studying urban planning has in your home country. I have always been very intrigued by that discipline and thought it is a necessary industry to help solve large and complex problems in our modern day societies! I can only hope that this reality changes in the future, not only in Canada and Bangladesh, but all over the world. I was also glad to know that there are people in the city council who actually want to make progressive sustainable changes for the city future plan.

Em Isaak

Aaron is a urban planner for the City of Kelowna who is the project head for the North End of Kelowna right where our project is centered. I thought Aaron’s presentation was very interesting and very applicable to our project. The photos he showed about the history of the creek helped put a lot of the pieces together, especially because they were photos we had not previously seen. I very much appreciated Aaron coming to speak with our class, I was however curious if his presentation would have been a better fit for the beginning of the semester.

Aaron stated that the biggest challenge with the North End is affordable housing because as soon as there more amenities like businesses and green spaces, gentrification becomes a much higher risk. Another challenge that effects urban planning in this area is land ownership. Albeit, land ownership is a social construct but with the way our society functions allows for folks to have ownership over the space their house sits on and this can cause issues between neighbours, developers and city planners. In the context of Brandt’s Creek, it causes issues because the creek at points goes underground and through people’s backyards and so those portions of the creek are technically under ownership of the land owner and so it makes it quite difficult to do any sort of planning.

The aspect of Aaron’s presentation that I found the most interesting was how every time there is a new city council voted in, they can veto any projects even if they are already underway. These sorts of policies and projects take years and years of work but can be quashed at any moment every time a new group of folks is voted in.

Thomas Letcher-Nicholls

I am super grateful for Aaron Thibeault taking the time to come and speak to us! First of all, it was really great to have his view on the mysterious history of Brandt’s Creek through the aerial photographs from the city’s archives. One of the questions that we have been looking at for our project is: who is, and has been, responsible for Brandt’s Creek? Over the history of the creek, it is very difficult to tell who has been responsible for the changes that have happened to the creek (it is also difficult to tell exactly what changes have occurred). Have individual landowners or businesses made the changes to the creek, or has it been the municipal council (the city of Kelowna)? It was revealing that even Aaron did not know the answer to these questions due to a lack of sources; I asked about this and he speculated that sources and documents had simply been lost. Throughout this project, we have battled with gaps in knowledge, and I am so fascinated (but I am not sure this is the right word) by the way that the creek has been so changed with so little record. This seems to show the lack of regard that the creek is held in (and Aaron speculated that it the creek had been channelled simply to get it out of the way at one point). But it also speaks to a lack of concern for the landscape and sustainability historically in the city. Like our project team, Aaron tried to deduce information despite the gaps in our knowledge.

Moreover, it was really interesting to hear more about the North End Plan (NEP). Like others in these reflections, I was surprised that Aaron is the only person working full time on the plan! For our purposes of policy and knowledge mobilisation, it was very illuminating to see the 4 phases in the NEP: Background & Context; Issues & Visioning; Neighbourhood Concept Plans; and Final Plan Development. As with a few other presenters in the series of talks for this course, I was a little uncomfortable with the language and vocabulary used for the creek: “green infrastructure”, “amenity”, and “eco asset” do not seem to offer much respect for the creek or to treat it as a living entity; Aaron said that the council has been trying to work with First Nations groups but has so far not had much success. Throughout this course we have all discussed the importance of centering and amplifying Indigenous voices; and I wonder how urban planning in Kelowna would change if it centered Indigenous voices. This is not a criticism of Aaron because I think he is doing great work. It more makes me wonder who we mean when we talk about the city of Kelowna – who makes up the city? Whose voices are heard, and who has the power when it comes to sustainability?  

Shaiyan Siddique

I believe most of us in this class can relate to Tom's surprise regarding how little information is available regarding Brandt's creek's circumstances over the better part of the last century. This really does reflect the low regard in which it has been held all this time. Given the situation, I believe it is similarly difficult for someone like Mr. Thibeault as it is for us to find out more information about the background of this creek and the ways to improve its sustainability. Mr. Thibeault's effort to uncover whatever information is available from the city council and through aerial images is deserving of our appreciation.

Sofia Bahmutsky

Aaron Thibeault from the City of Kelowna gave a very interesting and useful presentation to the class. He is a wonderful speaker and had my attention the entirety of the class, I was really happy to have such as thorough and well-presented lecture. Aaron works in the North End neighbourhood planning project. He provided general timeline of the project since 2021, 4 phases in total and currently the project sits at phase 3: Neighbourhood Concept Plans. Aaron also provided a history of the North End and Brandt’s Creek to the best of his professional abilities. Eight aerial photographs from 1938 to present day helped to create a story about the North End Kelowna area. Although Aaron did not have all the answers, and himself had doubts and guesses about how Brandt’s Creek developed, I admired his work piecing together a cohesive timeline of Brandt’s Creek.

Aaron provided some city demo plans for north end neighbourhood, this was definitely my favourite part of his presentation. The miniature demo of neighbourhoods and new design trying to incorporate sustainability in urban planning was very cool to see! I’ve always been interested in urban planning, but never professionally understood how it works. I admired Aaron sharing photos and plans with the class before they were publicly available. He seemed genuinely passionate about his work and also about making positive change in the sustainable direction to the best of his abilities in this work.

The open discussion at the end of the lecture was incredibly useful. I asked Aaron about more general aspects of property values and the challenge of building low-income housing in the North End considering the extremely valuable property assessments of many lots in the area. He also spoke to the general slow pace of governmental work which is a hinderance to making progress. Overall I greatly appreciated Aarons lecture, and I sort of wish he could’ve spoken to us at the beginning of the term because of the very relevant information about Brandt’s Creek!