Course:HIST102/NapoleonDebate

Hi everyone! So... this is the page I have created for our debate. Everyone just needs to make sure that they put plenty of space between entering ideas, and try to remember to time stamp and sign your entry with the button above so that we can keep up with each others ideas! --NatashaWood 02:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay... So our topic is Napoleon Bonaparte was a carrier of French Revolutionary ideals during his time in power

So to begin... Basically, I believe that our side of the debate should be argued focussing on all of the lasting and positive changes implemented by Napoleon during his rule and refuting his dictatorial and expansive tactics as in the best interest of France. Firstly, we need to decide what we want to define the "ideals of the French Revolution". Although this is not a formal debate... technically as the pro side we have the opportunity to define the terms of the debate.

So as a start... LIBERTY, EQUALITY, and FRATERNITY but we can extend these to democracy, private property, male enfranchisement, etc --NatashaWood 02:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi guys! So who is doing what? I thought a good start would be to define some of the main ideals of the French Revolution and Enlightenment. Do you think that we need to have clear references for our assertions or is it more formal?

In 1804, emperor Napoleon I established the French civil code, known as the Napoleonic Code. The reform that he made with the French legal system is in accordance with the ideals of the French Revolution. The main changes that the Napoleonic Code brought about were that privileges based on birth were forbidden, freedom of religion was to be allowed, and government jobs were to be attributed only to the most qualified individuals rather than by privilege. These changes in the legal system were consistent with the Enlightenment ideals that arose at that time. Among those ideals were the resentment of royal absolutism and toward the privileges that were traditionally possessed by the nobles, as well as resentment of the clergy and its advantages. Moreover, people were longing for freedom of religion. In other words, freedom is what Enlightenment thinkers were hoping for. No doubt, the Napoleonic Code brought the French citizens one step closer to the freedom they had been dreaming of.

I will add some information later but I just want to make sure that this is ok with you and that we are all heading toward the same direction... Maybe we could also talk about the origins of the French motto and briefly explain the French Revolution and the role that Napoleon played during this period. Also, it seems to me that it would be important to add some information about the Enlightenment...

Anyways, I'll wait until I hear from you! --MarieEveLandry 03:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay.... No it seems like we are on the same page... I posted this awhile ago and no one else has responded. We are on a short timeline! I think that we should structure our work as an actual debate would be. Im not sure if any of you had to do them in high school, but then we could kind of write it as a speech. So I think (because the opening statement is fairly short...) We should focus on maybe three main reasons why Napoleon carried on the ideals of the French Revolution.

So Marie I think that the Napoleonic Code will be our strongest point because I feel that it has been Napoleon's most prominent legacy (besides of course his reputation as a fiery guy who wanted to take over the world... haha but we are trying to stay FAR away from mentioning that on our side of the debate!) But we should present it as Napoleon reworking the domestic framework of institutions in France because the Napoleonic code really served to fix and restructure a myriad of aspects of French institutions

Another possibility for discussion would be Napoleon's role as the Father of Nationalism within Europe? We could say that his expansion resulted in the formation of French nationalism and therefore fraternity by bonding the French together --NatashaWood 03:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Some possible ideas to consider as our evidence of Napoleon's ideals....

-NAPOLEONIC CODE - used to restore order to the domestic institutions of France by codifying the remnants of laws from the previous government structures, in doing so provided an improved system of justice and law -Its success is evident in the fact that it is still used today in France

-CONCORDAT OF 1801 - The Civil Constitution of the Clergy had caused a fissure between the Pope's non-juring clergy and the remaining church officials -Napoleon recognized the division was a pertinent issue among French citizens and used the Concordat to restore the Church to prominence BUT its return to power instigated by Napoleon allowed for the importance of the Church to be no longer equal to that of the STATE -He restored religious peace while maintaining a level of authority over the church

-MERIT -Napoleon maintained the ideal of individuality and merit and talent in earning positions -the army ???

-NATIONALISM - by expanding French control and re-establishing France to a position of prominence Napoleon fostered nationalism ... an ideal that eventually spread throughout Europe

- - - - Let me know which ones you think are strong enough to pursue and then we can develop them as our main arguments.

- Structure-wise We should probably begin by quickly outlining the ideals of the French Revolution that we are going to be focussing on and then relate them to Napoleon and remember we have to save some stuff for our rebuttal...

Our opposition is probably going to focus on the negative aspects of Napoleon's reign, such as the vast amount of war, casualties, and the cost of all of it and how his rule eventually resulted in the Bourbon Monarchy's re-establishment. We can refute this by saying that he POSTPONED the return of monarchy and allowed for the solidification of the French Revolution ideals. --NatashaWood 03:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I have school all day Tuesday, January 12th but we should SKYPE on Wednesday or Thursday afternoon (I am done school at 230pm) so that we can really get this done. I think it would be SOO much easier if we just talked and wrote at the same time. I have a ski competition this weekend so Im not sure what your schedules are but I really need to get this done stat and then it will be out of the way so that we can put together a rebuttal on Monday-ish and then our closing statement mid-next week???? To add me on SKYPE I think you just search TASHA WOOD and I should come up with Calgary as my city If there is any other way you'd like to do this please let me know. Then we can set up a time and date. Thanks --NatashaWood 03:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

PS... the time stamp isnt working because I am writing this on January 11th at 7pm and it is saying January 12th at 3:30ish

I just wrote a quite long message but when I saved it, it all disappeared... I suggest that you write on Microsoft word or something like that and then copy paste because this is quite frustrating...!

Anyways, I was saying that maybe we could discuss all four main points that Natasha outlined (code, concordat, merit, nationalism)? The code and nationalism are probably the strongest points but the two others also seem pretty important... I have never done a debate before but I imagine that the main difference between that and an essay is that the structure is simple and the explanations more brief? Do you think that the paragraph that I posted yesterday about the Napoleonic Code should be modified in order to fit the debate style or is that how it should be? Also, I can add some information to it if you’d like! I just thought I would wait to see what other aspects we want to talk about because there’s a restriction for the length of this assignment...

I am not available on Wednesday afternoon because I have class and on Thursday afternoon I work... If you do talk with our other team members and begin writing this assignment, just let me know what part to work on and I will in a very short time! Or we can set another time where we could talk if you’d like! I also do not want to wait until the weekend to get this done!

--MarieEveLandry 04:16, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that the stamp works with the international time zone... I actually posted this last post at 8:16 PM on the 11th

Hey marie... So im pretty sure Kevin Ly is the only other person on our team and he hasnt responded to anything yet..... That sucks that our schedules dont match. What about thursday night> or wednesday night ???? Let me know!

Also yea the debate is still formal and written a lot like an essay but just the intro might be a bit different if we want and I can write that part. I would be willing to outline the section on the French Revolution if you write the Napoleonic Code section and then depending on whther it just ends up being us two we can divide up the rest of the writing... The limit is 750 words right? So then how about you try and write 300 for the Code and ill do 250 for intro and french revolution and then we can decide on how to use the last part... and then I can tie everything together in the conclusion? Thanks Im so glad you want to get this finished stat!!!!! --NatashaWood 05:06, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe that Stella is also the other individual on the team. As far as I remember, Prof. Gossen had noted it was four to a team.
So sorry that I couldn't respond as quickly as I had hoped - my family recently came across something, so had to deal with it. No, my schedule would also not match during this time - I also happen to not have a webcam, so communicating on Skype is a bit of a handicap. However, as Marie as noted, if there's anything that is discussed that needs to be finished, send it to me if you choose to do a Skype meeting.

Looking at the structure discussed, it seems as if the structure of the debate could play out to

1. Code
2. Concordat
3. Merit
4. Nationalism

Natasha, in your outline, you noted that we could allot 300 words for the Napoleonic Code (something which I believe we've all come to agree with is the most crucial bit to our debate), and that there needed to be an Intro and paragraph emphasizing the French Revolution. I think our conclusion should definitely emphasize the Nationalism (point #4) that Napoleon instilled through the 3 other points.
In which case, I'll be happy to write up on the importance of Concordat & Merit (points #2 & #3).

So ...

Introduction - brief overview of the four points that will be covered (~ 200 words) |
Napoleonic Code - most important point (~ 300 words) |
Concordat & merit (~ 200 words) |
Conclusion/Nationalism - perhaps also bring up the ideals of Liberty, Equality & Fraternity? (~200 words)

What do you think? There are four sections. Seeing as there are four people on our team, perchance we divide it as such?
--Kevly90 08:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's what I wrote:

Napoleon represented the French Revolutionary ideal of “fraternity”, a unity & brotherhood among men and society. A prominent example of this would be the Concordat of 1801, an agreement between the Roman Catholic Church and the State. By recognizing Roman Catholic Christianity, and still allowing the choice of religion for Protestants and Jews, Napoleon instilled a sense of calm and authority. The restoration of religious peace, and reconciliation with the Church, ensured the support of largely Roman Catholic peasant-farmers, also a political move. By uniting French society together under the Concordat, Napoleon ensured the ideal “fraternity” was present throughout his rise to power. Napoleon especially carried the ideal of “fraternity” in his armies. The unity that Napoleon had constructed, through the Concordat and through the Napoleonic Code, was best embodied in the French army. “No leader in modern times excited a fiercer devotion or accumulated greater personal authority than Napoleon.” (Bruun 1972, 66). Napoleon instilled a sense of nationalism and fraternity within his peoples, be it through merit within the army or through religious peace.
Bruun, Geoffrey. 1972. Napoleon and His Empire. New York: D. Van Nostrand Company.

I didn't want to go past 200 words, in case Prof. Gossen is stringent over the word limit. Let me know what you think.

--Kevly90 08:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi everyone. Sorry for the delayed reply - life has been hectic. I will make sure I check this page constantly over these few days and hopefully we can get most of this - if not all - done before the weekend! And also I can't go on skype - it gives me the blue screen of death every time I try to use it. =(

In any case, Tasha I think your outline will work! I will write the Conclusion/Nationalism section.

--StellaTung 20:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC) The limit is 800 words so everyone will need to stay within 200ish words. As I am doing the introduction and FR background but provided the outline for our main points I can do the editing to make sure everything is cohesive as I don't have the opportunity to elaborate on any of the aforementioned topics. I'm not sure how it works to include a bibliography in a debate... I know that it is online but I think it should be written as an oral presentation. I will email Prof Gossen as to the format for all this. Thanks for getting back to us and getting on it very quickly! --NatashaWood 04:07, 14 January 2010 (UTC) Sounds good to me! I will post my paragraph on the Napoleonic Code tonight! I think it'd be nice if we could all finish our part by tomorrow since I think that Natasha mentioned that she is busy this weekend! So it'd probably be more convenient for her to do the editing as soon as possible! --MarieEveLandry 19:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC) Thanks Marie. I am very busy skiing this weekend so if you guys could send me the paragraphs stat that would be great! Thanks guys. Please send them to my email too... tasha_wood@hotmail.com ... as well as posting them because we seem to be running out of space on this wiki...

So here is my paragraph on the Code. It contains 195 words. If any of you guys feel that something should be modified or added, feel free to do so!
In 1804, emperor Napoleon I established the French civil code, known as the Napoleonic Code. The reform that he made with the French legal system is in accordance with the ideals of the French Revolution. The main changes that the Napoleonic Code brought about were that privileges based on birth were forbidden, freedom of religion was to be allowed, and government jobs were to be attributed only to the most qualified individuals rather than by privilege. These changes in the legal system were consistent with the Enlightenment ideals that arose at that time. Among those ideals were the resentment of royal absolutism and of the privileges that were traditionally possessed by the nobles, as well as resentment of the clergy and its advantages. Moreover, people of that epoch were longing for freedom of religion. Particularly, Enlightenment thinkers were hoping for freedom in a broader sense. No doubt, the Napoleonic Code brought the French citizens one step closer to the freedom which they had been dreaming of. Additionally, the Code is considered by many to be the first modern counterpart to Roman law and has been highly influential in many regions of Europe and the Americas. --MarieEveLandry 04:04, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's the conclusion!! Word count 170.
Napoleon earned the support of French citizens through internal reformations of French legislation as well as external conquests that expanded the French sphere of influence. Through many victories over the Napoleonic wars, he united the majority of Western Europe under the rule of a single empire. This re-established France into a position of prominence recognized amongst the major powers at the time, thus fostering nationalism and spreading it throughout Europe. Not only did he replace the corruption and inequalities of the old French regime with a solid socioeconomic structure that ushered his people towards a new age of law and justice, he also promoted a civil and judicial system as well as accelerated the end of the traditional class system as his legacy. These changes were most marked by his Napoleonic code, the Concordat, and a social system built on merit. During his rule, Napoleon lead France through a progressive era where the French revolutionary ideals of liberty, equality, and fraternity became the core values upon which French nationalism manifested. --StellaTung 04:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC) __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Hi guys Im not sure if you are going to check this at all this weekend... but once I received all the paragraphs, I realized that there are some redundancies and some things that I should be covering in the introduction that you guys put in our paragraphs. So when Im editing I am going to do some splicing and rewording so that our project sounds cohesive. Hope that everything is all good! Have a good weekend and we will chat on Monday! -Tasha

REBUTTAL

Hi guys Try to read the opposition's post. I opened it as a word document and then added in comments all along as to how we can refute things. If you leave a list of your emails I can send it to you. I think we are all pretty clear on how to refute as they used the argument of Napoleon's tyranny and dominative authority as their main point. So we simply have to refute that despite his authoritative position, Napoleon's reforms still carried the ideals of the FR and he postponed the return of the Bourbon monarchy, allowing the ideals to 'sink into' society and legislation.

Let me know what you think guys and I think we did really well! -Tasha Jan. 18th 10:30 am

Hey Tasha et al.,

My email is kevly90@gmail.com. I'm reading the document right now, and I too will put in my own thoughts and whatnot into the doc. Great ideas, Tasha, and thank you again for really putting everything together. Will reply tomorrow as soon as I can. --Kevly90 09:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Hey Tasha, Thanks for doing so much! You rock. =D My email is stella.tung.125@gmail.com. I haven't read the opposition's post yet but I will over the course of the day. - Stella Jan. 19th 8:38 am

Hi everyone! My email is marish04@hotmail.com. How are we going to do this? It seems that Team B had 4 main arguments in their opening statements (patriarchy, socioeconomic imbalances, restriction of liberty, and Napoleon's self-enriching techniques). Should each of us develop one? Please let me know what you think! Thanks to Tasha for putting everything together!! --MarieEveLandry 03:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

It's noted that our rebuttal is a maximum of 500 words. Did everyone take a look at Tasha's notes? Saw the argument from the other side, and thought there were some other weak points. I'll send the version with Tasha's and my notes on it. Stella & Marie, could you add your comments down also? Would someone be able to compose our thoughts and comments together?--Kevly90 08:46, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to Kevin and Stella for sending me your comments I think we have enough to secure a win! haha ... I appreciate that you included some sources but because some of the comments were taken word for word from other sources I have to reword all your comments for fear of plagiarism... Also, despite the structure of our opposition, footnotes and bibliographies are not used in debates unless its for a direct quote, and then you just mention the source. I asked Dr. Gossen about this and thats what he told me so thats what I am going to go with. If Marie gets ahold of either of you and emails you her comments please forward them so she can be included! -Tasha