Talk:Weber Part II

The idea of asceticism by Weber pointed out on this wiki page has brought me to think about what the repercussions of retiring from a very honourable job at an age where the work was detrimental for the worker's health would be for their appeal to God? Especially with the modern day concerns with over-working in countries such as Japan and Korea brought up by Kacey makes me wonder, at what point in time would the labour be considered enough by an asceticist standpoint?

I believe that for ascetic protestantism, to quit a job would mean to then find other work to continue God's will. So it would be Okay to resign but then do work in other ways that are meaningful and not for one's own self indulgence. I hope that makes sense.

I agree with you Jessica that, for Weber, ascetic protestantism overall rewards and promotes the "hard work, persistent, and diligent" work ethic. However, I think where it becomes a bit complicated is when the ideas of the "calling" and "God's plan for you" comes into play. In class we discussed how your job, be it a Wall Street financial analyst or a janitor, is God's plan for you and you are meant of fulfill that role. If you do not do this, you will be denying his "gift" and "plan" for you. If this is so, ending the work that is planned for one might be shunned if we view it in this light. It is pretty cynical to see it this way, for example if we look at sweat shop labour in third world countries. But then again, it is important to remember that Weber's ascetic protestantism only serves as an ideal type that we can compare to. It is only a heuristic.... but food for thought!

I think this is a very interesting argument because from a contemporary western standpoint sweatshop labor in developing countries is considered unethical and wrong. We actively try to dissuade companies from using sweatshop labor and sometimes even boycott ones that do. However from Weber's standpoint and as we talked about in class, we have to think about the idea of one's calling. Although the labor is tedious and sometimes dangerous and the pay is next to nothing and the conditions are terrible, from their viewpoints, they would be fulfilling their calling. As long as they are fulfilling their duties to the fullest, according to Weber, they would be practicing asceticism and working for the glory of God. This becomes a conflict between ethics (from a human rights perspective) and morality (from a Protestant perspective).

I think it's interesting to draw back to the idea of workers in japan / korea. My initial intention was to look at how the protestant work ethic was pushed onto demilitarized (colonized) countries by the US but if we look at how these two countries are working, perhaps they are working in closest alignment with Lutheran's idea of the calling. Perhaps, in working to death, you are most likely to be fulfilling the work that will most likely bring you closest towards God's glory.

This is my personal opinion but I believe that the case of over-working workers from Japan/Korea challenges Lutheran's idea of calling. The idea of calling is that the people were each provided with a vocation by God. It also includes that people shouldn't work beyond what is required to live. Today, in our modern society, people work to gain earnings beyond what is necessary to live because people are constantly being evaluated based on material possession (like money and objects). This means that often times the over-working workers are also working to achieve more than what is required to live, which contradicts Lutheran's idea. If those workers were to follow God's calling then there would be no reason for them to over-work until karoshi. However, there also exists this irony that over-working occupations could also be God's calling.

I am not sure that work has to be paid work. After retirement it can be volunteer work at a church or contributions in the home. I think that the type of work is dependent on age and health and focuses on staying productive and busy, rather than sitting around at home watching television. Also in terms of over-working in Japan, I find that culture plays a very big role. Their work ethic comes from a comprehensive culture that embeds and values pride, respect, and honor. Though I agree with the parallel drawn with the protestant ethic, it may be less related to religion and more to cultural attitudes and social values.